August 10, 2009

Tycho Is Right

I love it when Gabe and Tycho argue publicly on the PA front page. Clearly though, Tycho is right here. Link.


Drew said...

Absolutely Tycho is right. I think Gabe is being shockingly naive. Although, the remark about sex with unconscious women was a low blow. Tycho took that wildly out of context and put it forward in a way seemingly designed to put Gabe on the defensive. That's not cool.

Dan said...

I was going to write a reply saying I thought Tycho was wrong, if not absolutely so. However, it seems the mail Tycho got and posted this evening will do a much better job than I can.

MosBen said...

Nah, I don't buy it. There may be a group of people drawn to these systems that aren't trying to be predators. They may even be a majority of the people buying the books and attending the seminars. Shy nerds, after all, have money and they're a great niche to sell this type of stuff to. Still, that doesn't change my reading of the system or the people behind it. Granted, I'm going by Wikipedia research and a quick perusal of their website, so there's every possibility that I could be wrong.

Still, what I'm seeing is a series of methods designed to trick/coerce women into sleeping with guys that they wouldn't normally sleep with. That nice-but-shy guys want help in getting the courage to talk to women doesn't mean the people behind these groups aren't sleezy.

Dan said...

To preface this: 1) Sorry in advance for the rambling; and 2) I will say that I have done considerably more than just a perusal of their site and Wikipedia. I actually read the book "The Game" people were suggesting to Gabe. I'd be happy to loan it to whoever wants it. I recommend it, not as some pick-up guide (because it really isn't), but as an interesting story about the "seduction community" and one guys experiences with them.

I will say that the guys behind these seminars are in it to make money, no question about it. That's not necessarily sleazy or not sleazy, in my opinion.

How are we defining "predator" in this context? I'd like to know what you mean before I can judge whether I think it's a fair term to use.

Also, I think it could actually be pretty insulting to women to phrase it as "methods designed to trick/coerce women into sleeping with guys that they wouldn't normally sleep with". I'd like you to clarify the intent of this statement, if you could. I hope you can see where some women might take offense to this (and in fact, I've known women to think similar statements to be insulting). Women aren't weak gazelles to be picked off by some magic techniques.

Regardless of the advertisements these guys will use, I don't think any of them claim you'll be able to have sex with ANY woman in the world you want, because women can make their own decisions.

Related to the above point, I also think your use of the word "coerce" is ill-chosen. It, at the least, implies - or depending what definition of the word you use, outright states - that these women are being compelled against their will. This comes pretty close to saying any sex had as a result of these "tricks" wasn't consensual. Regardless of whether you intended to imply or state this, I think this is a useful point to discuss.

People use "tricks" all the time in trying to get people to sleep with them. They tell jokes, stories, etc. that they know from experience people will find interesting or draw people to them. They hide things about themselves that they know people of their desired gender generally wouldn't like/be interested in. From outright lying, to lies of omission, to simple prudent silence, people typically don't show everything of themselves at first to people they're attracted to.

I'd be fascinated to know where you think the "line" is, between consensual sex and "coerced" sex in this context.

Drew said...

"Women aren't weak gazelles to be picked off by some magic techniques."

Surely you should be making this point to the people selling a system for picking up women "with an 80% success rate". This entire seminar is predicated on the idea that that's exactly what women are.

Drew said...

Look at that long email Tycho posted. Even when defending these programs, that guy can't help making broad generalizations about what women like and don't like. Women are all the same, complex mechanical sex-mechanisms, but you can operate them like an expert with just a few simple lessons!